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Okay, thank you. I need
Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Gayatri.
It isn't every day we have the privilege
of a president on the show. This is no
ordinary president, but the president of
a land whose people have been ethnically
cleansed from their homeland to make way
for a US war base and on which the
torture of kidnapped people from around
the world appears to have taken place
and a base given to the US military by
us, the British. It is of course Diego
Garcia, part of the Teos Islands,
highlighted on the show when we
interviewed British TV host and human
rights campaigner Ben Fergle in a
landmark interview. Today we can go one
better and welcome onto the Sputnik the
man chosen by the Chugosians to
represent them on the world stage their
president Alan
Vincatasen. President, thank you for
joining us. I'm struck by the British
Union flag on your lapel. Uh you live of
course in Sussex like thousands of
others of your exiled
compatriots. Don't you feel a little bit
bitter about the British? Why are you
flying their flag?
Well, uh, Garcia, my homeland is
still a British overseas territory and,
uh, I wanted to remain such for more
years. Uh, because, uh, we were exiled
between
1965
1973. Uh, we wanted to remain a a
British overseas
territory because the UK has got
responsibility to resettle us on our
homeland. Indeed, they do. So this crime
took place mainly under a Labor
government in the 1960s. How do you
think today's Conservative prime
minister views your flight? Uh we
submitted a memorandum to the prime
minister before the general election
asking him to uh give us our right to
return in a pilot resettlement. Erh the
problems that we have had is that there
was no uh clear indication about the
demand on the number of chagosians
wanted to return. Certainly uh the cost
is a bit uncertain. Uh the government
has replied that they will need uh to do
more works so that a final decision can
be made. Now you've produced this uh
book the flight to freedom. Tell us
what's in it. The book uh the flight to
freedom is about the story when I came
for the first time with the first group
in the UK uh for a better life, a new
life running away from poverty uh which
we
were made to suffer in Mauritius uh by
the UK uh government. So the book
relates how I orchestrated the coming
the migration of our people in the
United Kingdom. You had uh the right to
do so of course at the time not a right
that many people would uh would have
today. What's happened to your people
since they were turfed out to make way
for this American war base?
We were forced in a abject poverty in
Maitius. We we were considered as
secondclass citizen there. The state of
Mauritius is having an issue with
regards to sovereignty over our
homeland. They want sovereignty from the
UK. Uh and that's why I'm here to fight
for the cause of my people because I
believe uh this is our country. It
should remain uh a a UK overseas
territory and we as UK overseas uh
territory uh citizens we need to be able
uh to return uh as such a citizen in our
homeland and why can't you return? Are
you physically barred? Does your
passport preclude you? How do they
actually bar you? We are British
citizens with a British passport. But uh
because of the military base, the US
military base uh uh in our homeland, it
makes it impossible for us to return.
There are uh several orders in council
that have been uh done in this country
uh to prevent us from returning and
there is still another
one. But uh we continue to campaign uh
on our rights of return. So uh recently
uh the conservative government uh
appointed the firm KPMG to do a
feasibility uh study on return. The
feasibility study shows clearly that
there is no legal barrier to our return
except that the government must invest
the money that is needed for a pilot
resettlement. And uh I think that's a
way forward. That's a moral way forward
for the UK otherwise we we cannot stay
uh continuously in exile from our
homeland. The lease for the US air base
uh on the islands is about to expire
next year. Is this somehow stopping or
bringing you more hope to return to the
islands?
Uh the the lease uh will uh will
continue for another 25 years. It will
not stop uh next year. Uh if the UK or
the US want to stop uh this
agreement then they will have to
renegotiate it or it will come to an
end. Whereas if both parties uh want to
continue there there will be uh no
negotiation. Yeah. And I believe uh this
is the right time for the UK government
to uh do the necessary to allow us back
and certainly to invest uh the money
that is needed for a pilot resettlement.
uh which is uh a the capital cost is
below 60 million and uh I believe also
that the the the Americans got a moral
duty also uh to chip in some money uh
for a pilot resettlement on Jgo Garcia.
The situation that we have is that we
have a government that needs to make
decision and they need to make the
decision quickly because our old people,
the old natives are dying. Yeah. and uh
I'm amongst the last generations uh of
natives. So it is uh very important that
uh we uh we be able to to return and and
with the changes that this government is
bringing certainly in giving more powers
to Scotland and to uh Wales and all
these changes that are being brought uh
in this parliament. So I think it is it
is a moral duty of this government to
allow us uh to return. Uh when Ben Fogle
was here, he painted this extraordinary
picture of the houses that your people
had been forced to leave now being
inhabited by the kind of international
jetet uh boat yacht owners stopping off,
living in your houses for however long
and then sailing on to their next
destination. So there clearly is no as
it were physical reason why people
cannot live in these houses uh
preferably the people whose houses they
are rather than international jet
setters. What's to stop? Is there
anything to stop a number of us just
going there? Uh me, you and a few
hundred uh chosians from Cwley. Uh could
they stop us if we did it?
Yes. Uh the the the u there is a legal
barrier uh now uh because of the uh
orders in council. So if for example we
take a boat uh or a plane you can't land
there uh and a boat you can't you can't
get there without the
permission. This is which navy would
intercept you the British or the US?
That would be uh the uh British and the
US. Both even though you're a British
citizen effectually. Yes, we have. That
would be very embarrassing for the prime
minister, I must say. Yes, we we have.
That makes it all the more attractive to
me as an idea.
Yes, I I I think this is this is
something that uh if this government
doesn't uh do uh their best to resettle
s as uh quickly. I think that's the last
resort that as as a people will have to
will have to do. Yes. It' be a kind of
reverse boat. people, people leaving
Europe to go back to their homeland and
the European Navy trying to stop them.
That's that's what I am asking. I'm
asking this government to allow us to
let us return. Let us leave the UK for
good to go in our country. There are
many people coming to this country. We
came to They're always complaining about
it. They're always complaining about
chaps your color coming here. Exactly.
This would be a reverse. Yes. We want a
law. We want a new orders in council
allow us to return to our homeland.
That's simple as that. But the
government must foot the bill. Of
course. Does anyone uh champion your
cause? The government is one thing. Have
you persuaded the opposition such as it
is in the British Parliament to adopt
your cause?
I I think the the difficulty which the
opposition
uh has has had in in uh in the past is
that all happened under Howard Wilson
and uh this government has done things
right in 1982 when they paid peanut
compensation but they tried to do
something and it is this conservative
government also that has appointed KPMG
to do the visibility study and I think
uh this government got the the the right
uh timing and the the the right decision
uh they they can do it well I must tell
you if you're ever organizing an
expedition to
reclaim Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean
I want to be on board I'll be one of
your deck hands on the flagship ship as
we go back. Guyatri too, she's from uh
roughly very roughly that part of the
world. That's going to be great because
we are asking to return to our homeland
in a very peaceful way and we want the
government to do the right thing. We
want everybody to do the right thing so
that return is done smoothly. But if
this government says that there will be
no return, no pilot resettlement,
nothing, I think that's the only
alternative that we have uh into our own
hands. How can people help you? How do
they contact you? They can contact me uh
on I'm on Twitter and I'm on Facebook.
Uh they can contact me and uh certainly
and there's a support
group support group. They're doing a
great job I must say. doing very very
good job with the help of Benfogle and
and Philip Agregori. So I think it's um
I think we we we we got a chance here
and uh I think the UK will need to do
some moral thing. Thank you very much,
Mr. President. You're
welcome. After the break, the terrifying
advance of the most savage and
destructive army since Jeniskan, ISIS,
now just 60 miles from Baghdad and
steadily advancing on Damascus,
controlling cities as far apart as Certe
in Libya and Boro in northern Nigeria.
Don't miss it.
Welcome back to Sputnik. The ancient
Roman amphitheater in which I have
myself stood in Palmira in Syria became
like some ancient Roman bloodbath, the
site of mass executions last week when
the ISIS Visigothths took control of the
fortress town. ISIS now approaching the
first anniversary of the declaration of
their caliphate. Yes, it's only been 12
months. celebrated in advance with the
conquering of Ramadi, capital of Anbar
province in Iraq, just 60 miles from
Baghdad and in Palmira in Syria, home of
one of the world's greatest
archaeological treasures. They are
beginning to look unstoppable in both
countries and a growing menace elsewhere
too. Certainly, if what has been fielded
against them to date is the best there
is, they are not going to be stopped.
And a growing question is does the West
and Israel actually want to stop them?
And if not, why not? Joining us to
discuss the threat is the brightest Arab
woman analyst of them all, Hafsa Ka
Mustafa. Hafsa, thanks for coming back
on board the Sputnik. The last time we
spoke, uh, this was a threat, but a far
distant one. Now, it's a clear and
present danger that certainly in Syria,
it may now be winning the war and in
Iraq, it may now be uh unvanquishable in
the areas it now holds. Is that how you
see it? Sadly, it is. Uh it's been a
pattern uh it's been an ongoing pattern
since the US have set foot in Iraq. You
know, if you look at it in a scientific
way, wherever the US spread, ISIS,
wherever US tread, ISIS has spread and
they've increased in potency. They're
they've taken over key strongholds. So,
I think it is very look is very much
looking as if ISIS is there to stay and
it's very much a force to be reckoned
with. So, while I was here last time, we
were talking about a rag tag army that
really didn't have much much focus. They
were coming from all over the place. But
now we're seeing a very strong military
force that is making major gains in some
of the most key places of the Middle
East. So yes, they are very much a
threat and they're looking as if they're
here to stay. Let's take Syria first of
all. Uh for a long time it looked like
the Syrian regime and its army, which
fought very heroically, sustained huge
losses, remained loyal to the state, had
the beating of ISIS. What's tipped the
balance? Why are they now effectively in
control of more of Syria than President
Bashar is? Well, this is the very
strange thing about what's been
happening in the past 6 months alone. Uh
up until four, you know, for the best
part of four years, we've been hearing
Assad is going. Assad has got only a
month to go. Assad is is is on the ex is
on the exit. And yet, he has remained
and he has become even more popular
amongst Syrians. And at this crucial
time where he's actually inflicting huge
losses on ISIS come a US-led coalition
supposedly designed to weaken ISIS. And
yet what have we seen in the past month
alone? We've seen that a coalition of
the most important and fearsome armies
on the planet have actually strengthened
ISIS. So what has what we've seen as a
result is that Syria, the Syrian army,
which as you say has fought heroically
against ISIS forces, is actually losing
the ground on many key places in part
thanks to the coalition, which is really
strengthening ISIS uh in in Syria. Well,
the big question is whether that's
deliberate or uh
inadvertent. Uh I have resisted for
obvious reasons for four long years the
suspicion that this was a deliberate
tactic on the part of the west but I'm
bound to say I'm saying it here for the
first time on television that I have now
concluded that the coalition which was
supposedly set up to end the threat of
ISIS is in fact facilitating it. I give
you just one
example. Given that ISIS, the heart
eating, head chopping fanatics, now
control more than half of Syria, which
is next door to Israel, you would expect
Israel to be jumping up and down uh in
anguish at that prospect. Imagine ISIS,
the califf, Baghdaddy installed in
Damascus next door to them. A terrifying
prospect you might have thought
Netanyahu might have been expected at
the United Nations holding up his
diagrams pointing up the mortal threat
to his state. But we don't have any of
that. In fact, there's not a whisper out
of Tel Aviv about the dangers of ISIS
ruling the country next door to them.
What could be the reasons for that?
Well, clearly because ISIS are
destroying the Middle East, weakening
the surrounding countries, weakening the
countries that pose the greatest threat
to Israel, and therefore they're playing
into Israel's game. Now, the one central
thing that is really a major focus for
the majority of Muslims across the world
is the Palestinian cause and the
suffering and the ongoing suffering of
Palestinians. And when you see that the
people of ISIS who are claiming in some
bizarre way to somehow represent Islam
or Islamic interests have not in any
way, shape or form targeted Israel or
any Israel interest. I think it really
says a lot about the coalition between
the two. And one major one thing that's
been very very striking recently was
that uh ISIS forces well not ISIS forces
but the the opposition to Assad which
are fighting alongside Jabet Nusra which
is itself a ally to ISIS have actually
congratulated Israel on its supposedly
independence anniversary. Now that is
utterly shameful. Wherever you stand as
an Arab and as a Syrian and however much
you oppose Assad, there isn't a
self-respecting Syrian who could
possibly congratulate Israel in any way,
shape or form. And I think that really
just that little information that is,
you know, was swept under the carpet and
wasn't making the headlines really says
a lot about the alliance between ISIS,
between these terrorists and the state
of Israel. Well, we're now going to,
unless there's some spectacular reverse
on the battlefield, we're going to have
the emergence of a new state in half of
Syria and a third of Iraq, uh, with the
border between the two obliterated.
uh thus uh buffer state between Iran,
Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine. That
may be one clue uh to what the western
countries uh are seeking to achieve
here. This will break the arc or the the
arc of resistance if you like uh by
which from Iran to Lebanon and across
the border into Palestine uh support for
the Palestinian people was able to be uh
conveyed. Um, it's clear though that
whatever ISIS said or didn't say about
the independence of Israel in their
ranks, there are some very fanatically
uh extreme people.
Are they likely to be demobilized once
the war, the current war is over, or
will they want to go on and fight
somewhere else? Is Saudi Arabia in
danger? Is Israel in danger? I very much
doubt that Saudi Arabia is in danger or
Israel is in danger. For one thing,
Saudi Arabia has been funding uh the
other uh avatar if you want, which is
Janus and all the other opposition
parties in Syria. And as we've
discussed, Israel is very much
benefiting from the chaos that is
brought upon by ISIS. Now the what we
have to notice uh in the region the
wider Middle East is that these groups
and similar groups are acting simply uh
in the interest of increasing chaos and
warfare in the Muslim world. Now in that
part of the world they're claiming that
they're resisting Shia influence. That's
their that's one of their arguments. But
of course what is their argument when
you have al-Qaeda in the Maghreb where
there are no uh where are no Sharia
populations in that part of the world.
So really their aim is to just increase
chaos, give Western countries in
particular in the US the uh the reason
and the excuse to come in to invade to
send in forces to sell more weapons to
Saudi Arabia. So what they're doing is
really they're giving the opportunity
for the Muslim world to collapse and to
be destroyed. And every every single
endeavor that they take is actually
going towards that aim which is to
fragment the region, leave it weakened
and of course in a weakened wider
weakened Middle East, you have a strong
emerging Israel. What um one of the few
um resisting groups fighting ISIS
successfully are the Kurdish women.
Yeah. But funny enough, they are being
supported by the US as well. How do you
read that movement? I mean the the role
of of the Kurds in in the Arab world has
been very ambiguous probably because um
you know in in the fight in in Iraq it
was they were used against Saddam
Hussein. Uh in Turkey they've they've
played again an ambiguous role. It's
very difficult to to actually pinpoint
how to you know how the Kurds are
operating. they've been fed a sort of
very anti-Arab propaganda and I think
that's been very central to how they
were strengthened and in with the fall
of Saddam Hussein what happened is you
had uh Israel quickly jumping and ally
with many Kurdish leaders saying well
actually you know whilst you were being
gassed by Saddam Hussein by the Arabs
you know we can come here and help you
so there's been a sort of weird alliance
between Kurdish forces and Israeli
forces now with the case of ISIS they
only came into fight because ISIS is
threatened certain parts of of Kurd
Kurdish. Well, the only serious effort
the United States has made against ISIS
is when there are Kurdish allies have
been threatened in Kobani in uh in
Erbil.
Uh you're an Arab woman. An Arab woman
who thinks like you, talks like you,
looks like you would have no future
under ISIS.
uh the horrific attitude that they have
towards women, including justifying
multiple rape of Yazidi girls, for
example, written by one of their women
in their own theoretical journal this
month, saying that it was actually
Islamic to seize these girls and
multiply rape them and claiming that
they celebrated when the first of the
slave girls was brought into their
homes.
What a face this is for the Muslims.
What a horrific image that's being given
to Islam by these people. Well, I think
this is this is exactly it. This is a
caricature of evil. I mean, the the
barbarity of ISIS is is unmatched. And
they seem to take pleasure in exposing
their depravity in a way that has never
been seen before. You know, we know the
armies raped. We know that war is a
nasty thing. We know that horrific
things happen on the battlefield. But
what ISIS is doing is actually promoting
it and showing it off as something to be
proud of. And this is unheard of. I mean
in in the annals of history, you know,
people are ashamed of their the crimes
that they commit. So I think ISIS is
really contributing to this image that
fuels Islamophobia and particularly in
the West and allows countries such as
Israel or the US say, "Well, look, this
is pretty much what Islam is." Because
of course, whether we like it or not,
ISIS is claiming to be the Islamic
State. The word Islam is intrinsically
linked to ISIS and therefore it's linked
to what it does and I think ISIS are
playing a major role in actually fueling
the image a bad image of Islam which in
itself fuels Islamophobia.
We're going to have to interview you
again because there's so much we didn't
have time to reach there. Hafsa, thank
you very much indeed.
And now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media. What's rattling about the fate of
the Chagosians? Uh, Stellarance says the
following. Britain is such a free
country, they can't leave it. What a
truer test of freedom than that. On the
possible working together of ISIS with
the West, Paul Hoover says ISIS was
created by the West, so of course
they're hoping their investment pays
off. Well, that's all that we've got for
this week, which alas means that's the
end of the show. You can stay in touch
with us on Twitter at RT_Sputnik, and on
Facebook, you can like us on Sputnik on
Russia Today. Goodbye from me, Gayatri,
and from me, George Galloway. It's been
marvelous.
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